November 16, 2012 at 3:05 pm #3037
I just remembered to email everyone about this discussion. Expect some more input soon.
FYI, I have had some discussions with the LYRA committee at National YC. They would be happy to have us, and have free crane with trailer storage.November 16, 2012 at 3:15 pm #3038
Ghost won’t be making it up to the Lakes in 2013. Hoping to do some more racing locally against Kestrel and Eleven in the Maritimes. Perhaps 2014.November 16, 2012 at 6:08 pm #3040
If I go outboard, I would change my interest in the NA’s. :)November 17, 2012 at 6:43 am #3045
Bruce – do it. I pulled our inboard out last year and the boat feels great. I miss the convenience when racing PHRF, and probably would have left it in if I never got near other Olsons, but the ability to race OD and go head-to-head with the other boats makes it more than worthwhile.
Even if you don’t race OD very often, I find the boat feels more responsive and accelerates more quickly. I may be fooling myself, but removing almost 5% of the boat weight, and getting rid of the prop drag, must be worth something! The 6-point drop in PHRF rating seems pretty close too – our club racing results were no worse than before, and may even have improved despite some rather old sails.
DNovember 17, 2012 at 7:22 am #3046
My preference for the NAs would be LYRA next year, but that is admittedly for personal reasons. Our summer looks to be busy, and something local would be the easiest to get to.
Some other thoughts (just my $0.02, but hopefully enough to generate some additional conversation):
– As long as there is interest, the regatta should move around to maximize opportunities for participation and give the ‘North Americans’ relevance outside Lake Ontario.
– 200+ miles is a regatta all by itself. If there is a mandatory LD race as part of the regatta, I’d prefer to see it short enough to finish in a day (30-50 miles?) so that the crew isn’t too tired, and the regatta doesn’t stretch to a whole week. I enjoy LD racing as much as the next person, but the race should enhance the NAs, not dominate them.
– My experience racing J/24s was that the regattas were almost exclusively held at clubs that offered free crane services (I may have been spoiled). This made arrivals and departures significantly easier, and made the events more attractive because it kept costs under control. I am attracted to venues that offer the best cost/benefit breakdown because I think it offers an opportunity to the largest number of boats to participate, and therefore leads to better competition, builds stronger crews, and allows us to share ideas in person over a beverage or two. Barrie was an outstanding example of this principle last year – the costs were very reasonable and the facilities, members, race management and off-water activities were all exceptional.December 17, 2012 at 5:02 pm #3055
Bump… I like Derek’s take on this especially the part about the LD race. Having done a fair bit of ocean racing, the idea of doing a Mac race has a certain appeal. But to include as part of a championship series with day racing either before or after seems a bit much (and potentially anti-climatic).
Seems our goal should be ten boats whatever that takes. If basing the event out of Toronto gives us our best shot, then let’s commit early so people can plan accordingly.January 9, 2013 at 7:32 pm #3056
Okay…time to ramp things up a bit. I see two bonafide bids…one for LYRA in Toronto, and the other at Harbour Springs. Toronto is more of a sure-thing for numbers, but Harbour Springs would be really cool IMHO.
Are there any other contenders out there? Jonathan, how many local boats do you think you could convice to participate if WLIS was chosen?January 9, 2013 at 8:40 pm #3057
I’ll restate for Harbor Springs… Probably need 5 boats for a minimum? I’ll be there anyway..Opus Dei?
It would be two weeks after the Chicago Mac and one week after the Port Huron on July 26,27 & 28. Ramp launching is available and a marina next door for mast hoisting or launch at a fee. I’m sure I can get a deal from Irish Boat Shop. Harbor Springs is a very cool town..look it up. Parking is difficult at times except in the ramp area with a trailer. Bring the family and send them up to Mackinac Island. They’ll love you! Dockage is around $35 a day. You will see some of the top Great Lakes boats (70’s and TP52’s and the like) in the regatta. Awesome participation.
Race Friday is one design; Saturday and Sunday with PHRF fleets. I can get a LMPHRF certificate for you for $25 to participate in awards for the regatta. We would score all 3 days for NA. Thurs Fri and Sunday would be 1 mile W/L’s on Little Traverse Bay. Saturday is a 22 mile up and down the bay course, never hitting the same buoy twice. Little Traverse Bay can be windy or light and offers near offshore wave experience. Food on Saturday and Sunday are included in race fees ($350 in 2012 for 3 days racing) as well as free beer/brats/band at the Friday night crew party. With the food and entertainment and first class sailing, the price is way worth it for a crew of six. A State Park is about 5 miles away or lots of motels.January 9, 2013 at 8:44 pm #3058
285 miles from Sarnia to Harbor Springs. Michigan gas currently is $3.10 to $3.30 a gallon…cheap by Canadian standards? Sales taxes on stuff: 6%
It’s time for some travel gang!January 21, 2013 at 11:14 pm #3067
The ballot invites have been sent out to all boats that I know if that might be interested in the NA’s. if you have not received one, or if you know of someone that would like one, please drop me a line or post hereJanuary 23, 2013 at 12:34 am #3068
On a related note, whether or not the NAs are in Toronto, we are considering doing either LYRA alone, or the Youngstown/LYRA combination. Are any other boats looking at the regattas?
If anyone has done Youngstown recently (it’s been close to 10 years for me), can you still stay on the Canadian side and take a ferry from NOLSC to YYC for the festivities? Convincing the spousal units that the regatta is a good idea is always easier when wine country is at your doorstep. :)
DJLJanuary 23, 2013 at 1:43 pm #3070
Thus far 9 of 17 ballots have been cast. Get out the vote!January 25, 2013 at 10:24 pm #3071
Eleven votes have been cast, and it is now impossible for Harbour Springs to surpass Toronto, so Toronto is declared the winner. Thanks to those of you who voted!January 28, 2013 at 12:16 am #3072
Event not yet up on Yacht Scoring otherwise I’d have entered by now.February 3, 2013 at 6:06 am #3076
Now that we know the where, is it worth discussing the what?
The recent format for the NAs has been a LD race, followed by several days of course racing. To fit that into the LYRA program, teams must dedicate the better part of a week to the regatta while finding somewhere for the crew to stay in downtown Toronto. While many teams will gladly do just that, how many will choose to stay away as a result?
Looking at the NOR, it appears that we have two options available while working within the current program. Both options would include the three-day course racing, with the difference being the inclusion of one of the Freeman Cup races. With the Freemen Cup race, the regatta would take place 31 July to 4 August, without the LD it would be 2-4 August.
The only reason I see to adopt the short version is if it increases participation. I would personally rather race against 8-10 boats for three days than six boats for three days and an overnight LD, but others would disagree.
DJLFebruary 3, 2013 at 2:22 pm #3077
The LD portion of the NA’s has been in place since the competition’s inception. It is an aspect that is pretty unique in any NA’s, and one that I fully support. It tests a different set of skills than what someone typically sees at a regatta. In my opinion, it would be a shame to lose this aspect of the event.
Yes, it does add some logistical work and additional time off. But, I question your implied premise that its inclusion lowers participation. Last year, when there was some debate about including the Freeman, I ran a survey. Granted, this sample is biased to those that were relatively committed, and it is a small number, but it is some data none the less. In that survey, 3/5 wanted the Freeman, 2/5 wanted something shorter, 1/5 said they ONLY wanted the Freeman, 1/5 said they really did not want it, and 3/5 said they really did not care, tell them what to race and they would race it.
With the LD options presented this year, it is my understanding that both the long and short courses will share a start on the Wed evening. So, changing this race’s length would not affect the length of the regatta.
Most Western Lake Ontario boats (of all racing classes) already have LYRA on their sched. It is an annual thing for them (at least, when it is on their end of the lake). So, the real question is would changing the LD component of our NA’s change visiting boats. Being as they are already essentially committed to a week, I doubt the race is a big deal for them.
It is us, the middle-distance travellers that this most affects. I am in support of it, but will not speak for others.
All this being said, I would be more than happy to run another survey to gauge sentiment.February 3, 2013 at 2:31 pm #3078
I forgot to mention that the LYRA committee is considering something different to attract more eastern boats. They are considering moving the start of the Founders Cup to Piction!!! Yes, Piction! This race, if it were to proceed, would occur the weekend between EYC and Youngstown. So, we could potentially have:
July 11-13 EYC in Picton (one med distance race and two days of courses)
July 20-21 Founders Cup (125 miles to National YC (I believe))
July 27-28 Youngstown (two days of courses)
July 31-Aug 4 LYRA (Freeman plus three days courses)
Note…there is no way in hell Old School would do this schedule, but it could be fun for those more hardcore (and without family commitments) than I.
The committee wants me to see what interest level there is amongst Olsons. What say you?February 3, 2013 at 5:20 pm #3079
Just for the sake of clarity, the founders cup race in the last email is not part of the NA’s. but it is scored for the LYRA overall trophies.
EYC and Youngstown are not part of the NA’s either…….May 1, 2013 at 11:49 am #3130
Registration is live. You guys need to figure out which (if any) LD course you do.May 1, 2013 at 1:21 pm #3131
I’ve registered though my participation will depend on the eventual number of boats entered.
Absent any other consideration (and I have no experience with either course), I’d opt for the shorter of the two Freeman courses.
And can we agree that we can carry up to six class legal sails for the distance race and that they don’t have to be the same six sails that get carded for the WL racing?
Three reasons (all related):
– Distance race different from WL day racing.
– There’s enough time between the two portions meaning enough potentail variability in the weather to warrant the ability to adjust one’s sail inventory
– Safety… Say there’s a breezy forecast for the overnight. I might want to bring a reefable main and #4 sails I’d be reluctant to bring if I knew it would mean my choices for the day racing would be more limited.
Keep in mind that all sails would still have to meet the Class acquisition rules.
JonathanMay 1, 2013 at 1:30 pm #3132
As you know, I don’t have a dog in this fight, but there is a good possibility I will still be involved.
8) SAIL DECLARATION AND CERTIFICATION: All sails for any sanctioned event shall be identified by a unique mark applied by the fleet measurer. All sails for any sanctioned event shall be listed and declared to the organizing authority prior to the event. Substitutions will not be allowed except in the event of obviously irreparable damage and with permission of the Fleet Measurer. Substitutions may be made for sanctioned events where individual races are separated by one week or more. All substitutions must be declared, listed, and approved by the Fleet Measurer. Only three of the declared sails may be purchased within the current calendar year, unless the boat was purchased within the current calendar year, in which case six sails may be new.
Historically, we have not made any special allowances for sails for the LD, and have held to the six sail limit. Storm sails are not included in the limit, and I would argue that a #4 is a storm sail. Any combination of sails within the six were acceptable, so if a reefable main were wanted, you might have to drop an extra spin or the #2.
Another issue is that there is a possibility that Bruce, our measurer, may not be able to make the event. As I said, I will probably be there, but just in case this does not happen, is there someone else who will step up? Glenn?May 1, 2013 at 2:50 pm #3133
Appreciate what the rules say but if all participants agree, it would seem a modification should be doable. Clearly once one boat objects, we use Class rules.
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