Olson 30 PHRF or IRC?

 

Home Forums General Olson 30 Discussions Olson 30 PHRF or IRC?

This topic contains 15 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by Bruce Hubble Bruce Hubble 3 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #1998
    SWG
    SWG
    Keymaster

    Do people who race PHRF-LO events have certificates? I think they’re mandatory for some, if not all regattas?

    #3522
    Bruce Hubble
    Bruce Hubble
    Participant

    Two cents on the subject:

    I am an area handicapper for Lake Michigan PHRF. I’ve done some pretty extensive research into the rules about certificates and have come to the decision that certificates are MANDATORY when the handicap/scoring is itemized in the NOR. A handicap system is a class rule. As such, no OA or Club has the right to change the class rules. Can you imagine an IRC or ORR event that would make it optional? Why then is PHRF exempted? Rule 78.1, 78.2, 86.1(c) are just a few that apply.

    As a racer sailor, I want to know my competition has signed a certificate that they are racing in compliance with the area PHRF rule, that the equipment is on board, that the sails are legal for the rating and that fair sailing is enforced in this way.

    Done!

    #3523
    Bruce Hubble
    Bruce Hubble
    Participant

    forgot to add: Read the definition of “rule” (d)

    #3524
    SWG
    SWG
    Keymaster

    yes that sounds right to me.

    #3536
    SWG
    SWG
    Keymaster

    i changed the topic title to reflect a question that seems pretty valid after looking at the local club racing scene here on Lake Ontario. What are the positives and negatives of PHRF and IRC specifically pertaining to casually (OK, we still are trying to win but we’re not a bonafide racing program) racing an Olson 30.

    #3537
    SWG
    SWG
    Keymaster

    Positives i can think of, but comments completely welcome if i have any of this stuff wrong.

    PHRF
    – inexpensive to get the rating certificate (our club subscribes to PHRF-LO)
    – still lots of PHRF events
    – known situation in terms of how you are boat-to-boat

    IRC
    – better competition
    – your boat is measured so you will know more about it
    – better forward compatibility with racing scene
    – some regattas (seem to be not very many) no longer have PHRF classes

    #3538
    Bruce Hubble
    Bruce Hubble
    Participant

    Stick with PHRF for now. IRC is expensive…buy a sail instead!

    I’m not sure about IRC and stability rules. ORR does have stability rules and the Olson is on the brink of qualifying for near shore events. Offshore..forget it.

    Spar Wars is definitely doing the Port Huron/Mac. Opus Dei is pretty committed as well. Port Huron to Mac is DRYA PHRF.

    #3539
    SWG
    SWG
    Keymaster

    the stability screening stuff is even more confusing than the PHRF/IRC discussion. there are so many stability category numbers from various sources and the ground is constantly shifting. crazy to think that a boat that won the transpac multiple times is not supposed to be safe for sailing on lake huron or lake ontario.

    the issue for the inshore races locally for us is that there’s an almost even split between regattas using PHRF and IRC, and there are repercussions to which way you go, it changes the competitive situation. i am trying to figure if it’s better one way or the other but it’s almost a toss-up. the IRC situation seems more competitive and forward moving, PHRF is drifting towards being a place for only old slow boats. but it’s not quite there yet.

    #3540
    Bruce Hubble
    Bruce Hubble
    Participant

    Support PHRF. IRC is a measurement rule. You will have a great initial expense with measurement/weighing, etc. Think $1000. Plus the certificate cost more than PHRF.

    Remember, you will probably only encounter IRC a couple of times a year. Unless sailing one design, PHRF will be your mixed fleet of choice.

    IRC may seem more sophisticated, but it is truly a one number rule like PHRF.

    #3542
    SWG
    SWG
    Keymaster

    thanks for your comments.

    i am not sure i understand your last sentence (IRC may seem…), could you elaborate a bit?

    #3544

    Bill Vosteen
    Participant

    Both PHRF and IRC give you a single number rating that is used in all conditions. There are other rating systems that adjust the rating for the conditions, wind speed, etc., Complicated but is suppose to help with fleets of mixed boat designs.

    #3545
    Bruce Hubble
    Bruce Hubble
    Participant

    Elaborate:

    IRC/ORR and others in history have tried to impress upon racers that ‘only their system’ works and PHRF is for the commoner. Most of those sophisticated rating systems were measurement systems and encouraged ‘design’ features that were horrific or attempted to make all previous boats obsolete. The current rules seem to punish stepping outside the norm of a cruiser/racer as they designate. However, those designs are making a joke of the cruiser/racer that we know. It is no wonder that these ‘jokes’ are in the PHRF fleets.

    PHRF is a ‘one number’ rule. So is IRC. ORR attempts to massage their ‘number’ via the race course design. However, the number is typically wrong as the course cannot always be predicted.

    PHRF, using TOT factors, is the absolute best system. It takes all comers regardless of design. You can’t design a PHRF boat. You can have a well performing boat in all wind ranges….that is what is known as a phrf killer. The Olson is not one of those boats. It is great in light; sticky in mid range; and very fast in heavy. This is not the boat, it is the averaging effect of getting a fair ‘one number’.

    Chasing a handicap system to fit a boat is a lesson in futility. Race the boat hard and expect results. One shift is worth a ton of handicap.

    Race what you like as far as handicap. I just hate to see wasted money on these measurement rules that have no better system than PHRF.

    Stepping off soap box…..

    #3546
    SWG
    SWG
    Keymaster

    i don’t think anyone is chasing a handicap system to fit a boat, so not sure where that comment is directed, maybe it’s a general comment. i am looking for education, not chasing anything. i will say that stating “PHRF is the absolute best system” sounds like an opinion and not a fact. an opinion that may be well supported by facts, experiences and easily defended, so don’t get me wrong that i am disputing the statement, but to be completely fair, it’s still an opinion. local criteria come into play also, on lake ontario there has been a movement towards IRC in the last 4 years or so, so that’s something to bear in mind.

    as a new boat on lake ontario we have some decisions to make. we’re weekend warriors but we want to have fun. which weekend events to race and along with that comes the decision of which class? which is more fun? better racing? i looked at some old posts from when old school was getting ready to do the LO300 and he was contemplating an IRC class or PHRF. these are decisions and there are criteria on which to base your decision, i don’t think we can be unequivocal about what rating system is better – at least i can’t, i am open-minded at the moment – and that’s why i started the topic. soap box stuff is actually good for a discussion and i take it for what it is.

    PHRF is a no-brainer. it’s almost free to get the certificate for one thing.

    let’s say we want to race in LORC which is run under IRC. looking at this, will this be good racing for us?

    http://www.lorc.org/Results2014/RCYC%20Course%20Alpha.htm

    LYRA is another big regatta we are looking at, it typically runs both IRC and PHRF, but the Olson 30’s are in IRC, i guess they thought that’s where they should race.

    http://www.lyrawaters.org/raceresults/2013/shortcourseraces.pdf

    also, what do people think of this?

    http://www.oysqn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/2011-03-02_-_Making_the_Switch_toIRC_-_Everything_You_Need_to_Know.pdf

    #3547
    Bruce Hubble
    Bruce Hubble
    Participant

    Don’t take this wrong, but you seem to be chasing which HCP system has an advantage to an Olson? That is where my comments are coming from.

    Or are you deciding what kind of boats you want to race against? I guess that would be subject to the entries you see.

    If you are just starting out, you should prepare for a two year learning curve more. :)

    #3548
    SWG
    SWG
    Keymaster

    i think you are completely misunderstanding what’s driving my questions. i am not trying to figure out where our ‘competitive advantage’ or something lies, not at all. basically, in our part of lake ontario, you kind of have to decide under which rules you’re racing and i want people’s input about what they feel is a good direction. i didn’t post the race results to see how we’d “stack up against the competition”, it was just to give an idea what kinds of boats are in the races.

    case in point: a chat with scot (old school) yields comment, duly noted by me because he has a ton of experience racing his old boat: “don’t bother with IRC, race PHRF”. yet there are at least 3 Olson 30’s racing IRC locally in the LORC series. so there are different points of view on this and i am glad to have a forum to hear them.

    the learning curve is part of every facet of life and i am prepared for it, and i am anticipating getting a good view of the transoms of much of our competition whoever they may be. for sure we’ll have a steady diet of lessons in humility on the race course. our boat will be sailed by a crew half of which have never used a flying sail, but our beers will taste just as good as the folks ahead of us and the wind will feel as nice in our faces!

    #3549
    Bruce Hubble
    Bruce Hubble
    Participant

    Let us know what you figure out.

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