Pointing vs. J80’s, Soverel 33s, etc.

 

Home Forums General Olson 30 Discussions Pointing vs. J80’s, Soverel 33s, etc.

This topic contains 16 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by Bruce Hubble Bruce Hubble 6 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #1830

    Skip Danesi
    Participant

    This one goes out to those who regularly sail PHRF. How well do you point in light to moderate air compared to other boats, like J80’s, Soverel 33s, Evelyn 32-3 and the like?

    #2281

    Jason Adamson
    Participant

    I find the Olson to be a bandit in pointing vs the J80 in light stuff. Against the others you mentioned I am not sure as I havn’t raced against them. The Olson likes a little heel and loose trim in the light and she will take you to the moon. One of the great Olson tricks if you can’t quite lay a mark is to get close enough then heel the boat like mad, she’ll immediately point 5 deg higher and get you around. Much like a Laser. Just remember, more wind the flatter the boat.

    #2282

    Old School
    Participant

    +1. The one J80 that races around here is lucky if he is on the same leg at the end of a course race. We are consistently higher and faster…in every condition we have raced them in. Now, I can not comment as to the skill level of this particlular J80.

    Regarding the others, I have no input.

    #2283

    Al Holt
    Participant

    We race against Soverel 33s, J80s, and lots of other boats. Our experience is different. We find the newer boats have more effective keels and can profitably point higher than we can when it comes to distance made good to the weather mark. We do not try to point with newer boats generally in any winds. We find that our best result is to point a little lower and to foot. This puts us at a disadvantage at the start, where we generally need to tack away early for clear air and to get the boats off our lee bow.
    That said, the Olson 30 will point very high when you need to. As Jason said, when you need to get around a mark, then heel the boat and enjoy lift from the hull. You can save your bacon and get where you want to go. I just don’t think its a fast way to sail the balance of the course.
    The J80 one design fleet in Annapolis has acquired remarkable performance. We’ve seen some results that will amaze you. We cannot save our time on a well-sailed J80. That is true. Hands down.
    I offer this with some humility, but I will point out that Kestrel was 2007 high point winner in PHRF A3 in 2007 and second place in PHRF A3 in 2009 in the Annapolis area. We had 15-20 boats on the line much of the time.
    That’s my two cents worth about pointing.
    Al

    #2284

    Al Holt
    Participant

    I forgot to say that I was PHRF A2 high point winner in the Annapolis Area in 1998 and 1999 in my Soverel 33. In light winds, you should not expect your Olson 30 to point with a Soverel 33, which has a very thick keel that will make a Farr 30 squirm when it comes to squeezing up after rounding the leeward mark in light winds.
    Al

    #2285
    Bruce Hubble
    Bruce Hubble
    Participant

    I’ve got a J/95 in my area that I’ll be racing against Labor Day weekend. First meeting was a near draw. PHRF rates them the same as my O. I got a new heavy 1 that ought to even us up this time. They took 2nd and I got 3rd to a Melges 24. It was blowing pretty good..W/L’s. The J/95 A sail looks kind of small. I’m used to beating up on Tripp 33’s and Bene 36.7’s when I get in their fleets. :)

    #2291

    Todd Downey
    Participant

    Bruce,, I advise more mast rake.
    Todd

    #2292
    Bruce Hubble
    Bruce Hubble
    Participant

    Todd…are you saying more rake than the Ullman tune? Is this to get more prebend? I don’t seem to have a problem pointing..but always looking for tips!

    For most angles of heel..I’m not pullng the tiller much. More rake would increase that.

    Confused because I didn’t have a pointing issue…was just comparing performance to a J/95 that will be coming up again soon.

    To get me back on the thread…I think all know that the olson HAS to be brought up to speed first after a tack or you will never point.

    #2293

    Todd Downey
    Participant

    Maby a bit more than the guide says. All the boats are a bit different. When we tried to come up with a heasdtay lenght. As much as 3 inches different with the same look of rake. I sail with as much rake as I can handle. Yes it adds weather helm but then just hike it harder and sail it real flat to get rid of the weather helm. Also a Quantum genoa always helps :)

    #2294
    Bruce Hubble
    Bruce Hubble
    Participant

    I’m going to add another half inch or so to the forestay on Tuesday and see what happens. I do need a little bit of bend to flatten the main between the draft stripes. That might offset any weather helm all by itself.

    A main is my next buy. Mx or ??

    #2295

    Al Holt
    Participant

    Our experience is that pointing is enabled by headstay tension [tighter = better pointing] and the cut of the sails. I think fore and after position of the mast determines whether you have weather helm or lee helm. In stiffer breezes the amount of helm is easily adjusted with mainsail trim. It’s in the light breezes that you need a bit of weather helm…determined by the position of the sail plan fore and aft. The reason is that when you have lee helm the rudder is working AGAINST the keel. The keel needs a greater angle of attack and so develops more drag. With weather helm, the rudder is HELPING the keel and that reduces total drag so long as you haven’t overdone it. Too much weather helm gets the rudder into an inefficient angle of attack and you’re back to more drag. This is the reason people say “rake the mast to point better”. It’s because most boats have not been carefully balanced for a weather helm in light going. Raking the mast moves the sailplan aft and develops the needed weather helm.
    That’s my two cents worth.
    Al

    #2296
    Bruce Hubble
    Bruce Hubble
    Participant

    Adding Al & Todd together makes me sure I’ll add some extra. My light air helm is very light and sometimes a bit mushy, depending on sail trim…too tight and helm is gone. I know that is slow.

    #2297
    Bruce Hubble
    Bruce Hubble
    Participant

    Would aft rake flatten the mid draft of a genoa?

    #2298

    Al Holt
    Participant

    More rake will lower the clew. The shape of the sail is determined by how it was cut, halyard tension, headstay tension, trim car position, and the sheet.
    Halyard tension drives the draft forward. Headstay tension: loose=baggy draft aft, tight=flatter, draft forward.
    Car position and sheet control overall draft and the amount of twist in the sail. Moreover, car too far forward closes off the leech and the slot. Car too far aft twists off the top of the sail and it luffs. Car just right creates a steering groove the helmsman can sail, but narrow enough that he is challenged and his attention does not wander.
    That’s my two cents worth.
    Al

    Al

    #2299

    Todd Downey
    Participant

    Bruce, I use a all Twaron MX mainsail. Best we have ever had. Ichiban and Run Wild both have a MX main on order now.

    #2300
    Bruce Hubble
    Bruce Hubble
    Participant

    @todd…Traverse City is 50 miles away..have a quote. But will take your Q advice for sure on how they should build it. email: sparwars@att.net

    Sorry everyone for getting off topic.

    @AL: yeah, we do all that..I put on adjustable leads first thing on the boat. BTW GANG: Garhauer makes an excellent set…both sides including blocks/cars/cleats was around $600. I think my tri-radial genoa is just tired. It is being retired to light duty. Now have a 148 that pulls/trims great.

    #2323
    Bruce Hubble
    Bruce Hubble
    Participant

    If you race PHRF..the J/95 is quite a competitor. They rate the same as the O IB @ 108 LMPHRF. We beat them in light air, but lost them in heavy. But, that was because I had 5 on board…needed 6 or 7 to keep the boat flat.

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