Derek Lay
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Now that the venue has been chosen, is there any interest in racing a tune-up regatta at Youngstown? The CAN-AM Challenge regatta is the weekend before LYRA, and there is usually a feeder race between the two venues on Monday. YYC adopted a new OD-only format last year, and the feedback that I got from everyone who participated is that the new on-water format and old party format make for a very good combination. Five boats are required to form a fleet, with almost 100 boats registered last year in 12 OD classes including everything from J/70s to 8 meters.
Sorry that I wasn’t around to participate in the discussion, but I was able to vote and we intend to attend the regatta. I agree with Jonathan and others – we should have a system that allows the regatta to be determined with an eye to the health of the fleet, not just the desires of the majority. The current system came about after several years of small fleets and difficult decisions. Now that the fleet has been somewhat rejuvenated, it may be a good time to explore other options or methods.
Without attempting to add too much bureaucracy to the process, might it be time to elect a fleet executive and charge that (small) group with determining the regatta venue, schedule, format and any other issues that need to be addressed? Confirming the fleet measurer(s), publishing a local amendment to the OD equipment list (if still needed to address MOB poles, etc), and other routine admin would be helpful for new owners if our own experience is any indication. We were very fortunate to be able to leverage the local Kingston boats’ experience when we bought OC; anything we can do to help new boats join the racing fleet means better competition for everyone.Derek
Jon,
What size were the masthead sheaves that you ordered? If they match mine (and assuming that they fit well on your boat) I’ll probably ask them to duplicate the order instead of sending all new information. Thanks!
Derek
Ray,
I’m unfortunately not much help on the sheave box, but have a similar issue. I pulled one of the halyard sheaves at the end of last season so that I could replace them, and haven’t found a match. Did Ballenger mention who provided the originals? The one I took out has a 2″ diameter, is 9/16″ wide, and has a 3/8″ pin.Our vote is cast. Thanks for setting up the poll Dave!
Terry – what other regattas are you sailing in Jul/Aug?
All – Before we vote, I’d like to know what is being proposed for Loyalist. The other regattas are known commodities, with established organization, professional race management, sponsorship, and entertainment. While showing up at a location and racing around some fixed marks can make for a decent regatta, I’m not sure it is what comes to mind when I think of an NAs. Can someone outline the plan so that we know what to expect? Thanks
Derek
Jean – Welcome to the fleet! Lake Michigan in April? Brrrrr. Do you have skis for your Olson? :)
All – We would prefer to have a regatta before 1 September as well. Weekend regattas are OK after that, but it’s significantly easier to coordinate the logistics for a 3-4 day event during the summer. The Can-Am and LYRA weekends are the optimal time for us, regardless of location.
Derek
Your aft hatch had a spring? Ours has the locking string, but doesn’t have anything else to hold it down, sorry.
Dave – thanks for sending the e-mail. I’ve duplicated my comments here for simplicity. Hopefully we can keep the discussion in one place to reduce confusion.
My main concerns with an Olson-only regatta like whatever we would put together at Loyalist are the potential costs, and what happens if too few boats commit. By joining a larger regatta, we share the costs of on- and off-water regatta management (RC, PRO, jury, etc), entertainment, and other expenses with the other fleets. Whether a smaller regatta like the one we joined in Barrie, or a larger one like LYRA or the Youngstown Can-Am, the cost per boat for the overhead is significantly reduced over a ‘regatta’ with 5-8 boats. Further to that, if too few boats commit at the end of the day, our vacation and travel plans aren’t for naught, and we just join as a handicap entry. LYRA last year wasn’t as fun as a OD regatta might have been, but it definitely beat staying home on the couch!
While we would prefer that the NAs be part of a larger regatta, we will not rule out Loyalist if it proves to be viable and enough boats commit. Is there a boat willing to take on host function and carry out the liaison and planning required to make Loyalist work? If so, how early can we develop an estimated registration fee and firm up dates?
To answer Dave’s implied question about preferred venues so that we can narrow the options, we prefer ABYC, Ottawa and Youngstown in that order.
Derek
Sorry Terry, my mistake. Do you know what the marina charges, if anything, for the travel lift services, masting and dockage during an event? Is there a regatta to join, or a club and/or local boat to host a stand-alone event? The launch, haul, slip and regatta management fees are all effectively included in the LYRA, Can-Am and NOD registration, so it will be important to quantify the overall cost of each option before we can compare them properly. We’ll need the same details for the Lake Champlain event if anyone has them.
Terry – agreed. Accommodations are slightly easier to get to on the Canadian side, but we found that the slips at NOLSC were also spoken for very early and should be factored into any bookings. If the Youngstown regatta is chosen, we (Organized Chaos) will probably look to the Niagara-on-the-lake side, and commute across to YYC for the events.
Dave – acknowledged. This forum is the best gauge of interest and intent for now, but once we are ready for a vote I agree that whittling down the options makes sense.
All – Dave brings up another good point. We decided last summer that we wouldn’t call an event the NAs unless we had an acceptable level of participation. A minimum quorum of 5 boats was agreed to by the participating skippers, but the decision has not yet been put out for endorsement and/or ratification. Are there any strong feelings on minimum participation from anyone?
With respect to LYRA, it is being hosted by Ashbridge’s Bay Yacht Club (ABYC) in Toronto from 26 July to 3 August. It has the advantage of being a known commodity, with excellent event management. The organizers of the 2013 event were willing to give us an OD start for any number of boats, down to the three that showed up, although we opted to compete with the IRC class instead. LYRA is the host for the 2014 IRC North American Championships, although I’m not certain that we would qualify for it if we entered as an OD class. From a racing perspective, we accepted the standard three-day course racing format last year. We could either maintain that status quo, plan our own LD race Friday and join the course racing Sat-Sun (losing the ability to compete for the overall LYRA trophies), or find another hybrid solution that meets our overall intent.
The list below is a quick summary of what seems to have been proposed to date. Please flesh it out, add to it, or correct entries as required to develop an inclusive list:
Venue; Event; Dates; Notes
Youngstown; Can-Am Challenge; End July; Must add a LD race on Friday
Ottawa; NOD; End June; Must add a LD race on Friday
Lake Champlain; TBD; TBD; Is there an appropriate event?
Toronto (ABYC); LYRA; Early Aug; 3-day course race, or plan LD?Derek
Sorry gents, I’ve been away and haven’t had a chance to weigh in.
I also received the Can-Am e-mail from YYC, and was going to propose it as a strong contender for the Nationals site. YYC does a great job of handling an event weekend, and the focus on OD fleets should make for a good regatta. If we still want an LD race as part of the Nationals (as stated in my e-mails last summer, I’m of two minds given that some of the boats have stayed away in the past when open-water overnight LDs were proposed), there will likely be a LYRA feeder race to ABYC on Monday that could be leveraged.
A word of caution for Youngstown – we intended to do the levels last year as a work-up to LYRA and found that accommodations on both the US and Canadian side were booked up even 2-3 months before the regatta. If we choose to go with the Can-Am option, book early.
As a KYC member with a reasonable level of experience in the Kingston/Bath area, I would recommend against it as a site for the Nationals. The area is a great sailing venue, but the lack of decent infrastructure means that something as simple as launch/haul can significantly increase the cost of a regatta. Neither the crane at KYC nor the city crane can handle an O30, and the last time I discussed hauling at Collins Bay they wanted over $350 for a one-way lift.
If a mid-summer date is an issue for people, another option that I can explore is leveraging the NOD (Nepean One Design) regatta at NSC (our other club) in Ottawa [last year’s NOR – http://nod.nsc.ca/notice-race%5D. It is generally held in late June, and is well attended with 98 keel boats and dinghies racing last year. While slightly larger than the Barrie regatta a couple of years ago, the atmosphere is similar, the club facilities are excellent, and the entry fees are very reasonable. With two 5-Ton cranes on site, there wouldn’t be a problem getting people in and out of the water. While it is traditionally a two-day regatta, I’m sure that we could arrange a mid-distance race on the Friday if desired. Camping is available on site, and there is an entire National Capital full of other options for those who prefer to have a roof.
I have many of the e-mail addresses for the local boats, and am willing to fire out a few e-mails to try to catch those who don’t monitor the site. What I don’t have is any experience with online polls or votes if we want to go that way. Does anyone have the technology?
Derek
Has anyone worked with this stuff? http://www.lanex.cz/en/racing-line-d-f1
It seems to be pre-stretched, and has a surface finish to help counter wear. 1/4″ gives around 8300lbs load.Thanks Bruce. Time to splice!
Thanks gents. The biggest takeaway for me is to pre-stretch the line. I probably would have wound up with a bit more than I needed otherwise. How much creep did you get during the stretch, and how much did you use during the splices? just trying to figure out how much to order . . .
Gents,
I’m currently looking at using Amsteel blue to replace the backstay this year. I notice that the 1/4″ shows only 8600lbs breaking strength. Have any of you noticed an issue with it that would convince me to pay 60% more for 5/16 (13,700 lbs), or 100% more for 3/8″ (19,600 lbs)?
Is there another product I should look at? Thanks
DerekNow that we know the where, is it worth discussing the what?
The recent format for the NAs has been a LD race, followed by several days of course racing. To fit that into the LYRA program, teams must dedicate the better part of a week to the regatta while finding somewhere for the crew to stay in downtown Toronto. While many teams will gladly do just that, how many will choose to stay away as a result?
Looking at the NOR, it appears that we have two options available while working within the current program. Both options would include the three-day course racing, with the difference being the inclusion of one of the Freeman Cup races. With the Freemen Cup race, the regatta would take place 31 July to 4 August, without the LD it would be 2-4 August.
The only reason I see to adopt the short version is if it increases participation. I would personally rather race against 8-10 boats for three days than six boats for three days and an overnight LD, but others would disagree.
Thoughts?
DJL
Done.
On a related note, whether or not the NAs are in Toronto, we are considering doing either LYRA alone, or the Youngstown/LYRA combination. Are any other boats looking at the regattas?
If anyone has done Youngstown recently (it’s been close to 10 years for me), can you still stay on the Canadian side and take a ferry from NOLSC to YYC for the festivities? Convincing the spousal units that the regatta is a good idea is always easier when wine country is at your doorstep. :)
DJL
I bought bearings from Dave too, but my intent was to ream the bearings rather than sand the shaft. There is a significant difference between the inside diameter of the bearing, and the current shaft diameter, and I’d like to keep as much of the shaft strength as possible. I’m actually surprised by the variance in shaft diameters, I expected that they would be a lot closer to the same size.
Being able to see wear at all is hard for me to wrap my head around. We tend to scrap shafts when the damage gets into the thousandths of an inch range. These shafts are built to resist different torsional and bending loads than ours though, so the failure modes are probably different. I may still take some measurements and discuss the wear with someone who knows fiberglass rods, but I suspect that my rudder is OK.
Success! I only had .5″ extra when I dropped the tongue, but it was enough.
The next question is how much wear on the rudder shaft is too much? Has anyone built up a shaft before, or do they just leave it? I work in aviation, and we would swap a worn shaft on spec, but it isn’t as if a lot of the strength is gone in this case. My biggest concern is that there will be a bit of play in the bearings when I replace them because they have to fit over the unworn part of the shaft. Any advice?
My preference for the NAs would be LYRA next year, but that is admittedly for personal reasons. Our summer looks to be busy, and something local would be the easiest to get to.
Some other thoughts (just my $0.02, but hopefully enough to generate some additional conversation):
– As long as there is interest, the regatta should move around to maximize opportunities for participation and give the ‘North Americans’ relevance outside Lake Ontario.
– 200+ miles is a regatta all by itself. If there is a mandatory LD race as part of the regatta, I’d prefer to see it short enough to finish in a day (30-50 miles?) so that the crew isn’t too tired, and the regatta doesn’t stretch to a whole week. I enjoy LD racing as much as the next person, but the race should enhance the NAs, not dominate them.
– My experience racing J/24s was that the regattas were almost exclusively held at clubs that offered free crane services (I may have been spoiled). This made arrivals and departures significantly easier, and made the events more attractive because it kept costs under control. I am attracted to venues that offer the best cost/benefit breakdown because I think it offers an opportunity to the largest number of boats to participate, and therefore leads to better competition, builds stronger crews, and allows us to share ideas in person over a beverage or two. Barrie was an outstanding example of this principle last year – the costs were very reasonable and the facilities, members, race management and off-water activities were all exceptional.Bruce – do it. I pulled our inboard out last year and the boat feels great. I miss the convenience when racing PHRF, and probably would have left it in if I never got near other Olsons, but the ability to race OD and go head-to-head with the other boats makes it more than worthwhile.
Even if you don’t race OD very often, I find the boat feels more responsive and accelerates more quickly. I may be fooling myself, but removing almost 5% of the boat weight, and getting rid of the prop drag, must be worth something! The 6-point drop in PHRF rating seems pretty close too – our club racing results were no worse than before, and may even have improved despite some rather old sails.
D
Thanks Lilya!
Bruce, I’m hoping to line it up with a ditch, but the island I’m keeping it on is a bit limited for opportunities without blocking the main road. I suspect that I’m in a similar situation as Scot, and won’t have to dig far, but it’s always good to know before pulling the tiller off!
Derek
Group rental rate?
Does the stability requirement only apply to the ChiMac? Might be a bit of an issue if the OD boats didn’t make muster with the requirements.
Despite the concentration of boats in the area, I find it very hard to argue in favour of Kingston until we can address the almost-criminal cost of boat launch/recovery for visitors. If the LYRA clubs can offer a reasonable package price for the weekend, it would probably be cheaper to drive elsewhere than to visit Kingston. I missed the regatta this year, but have participated in LYRA regattas in the past and would probably vote in favour of the that option if none of the owners want to petition for their clubs to host the NAs.
Scot,
If we are going to have anyone look at the boat with an eye to keeping it “competitive in both handicap and class racing,” it would be worth investigating ways to meet the latest offshore stability requirements without sacrificing the basic OD hull shape and weight. Looking at the additions that Bruce Hubble had to make to his keel for the ChiMac, I can’t help to think that lightening the rig would have been a more favourable approach while making the boat more nimble, not heavier. Our boats are supposed to be ULDBs; why not improve the ballast/displacement ratio and prove that they can still be competitive?Has anyone tried a carbon rig to see what advantages could come of the swap? Would we be able to lessen the forces on the hull by tailoring the strength and flexibility of a fully-engineered spar? Acknowledging that the cost is a factor and would keep most of us with our current rigs, knowing what the potential benefits would be would at least provide the fuel for an educated discussion on the best way forward for the class.
Derek
Has anyone installed these stiffeners? Any noticeable change? Any pictures?
Dale,
I removed our inboard and installed a new outboard bracket last year. I don’t remember the manufacturer, but I managed to get a very simple (and reasonably priced) bracket from Dave Wilby at Pride Marine. The bracket is fixed once installed, so it’s light, but is adjustable and was easily set up for the transom angle. I don’t see the bracket on his website, but I’m sure he can look it up in my file if you are interested.
DerekThanks Scot, one less thing to figure out.
We still have the primary winches in their original position, so the flex happens at the winch, not the block. Are you using cabin-top winches?
I did some investigating last winter and found some delamination under our starboard winch caused by the flexing. Now that the delam is fixed, the flex is almost gone. If you are seeing a lot of flex, particularly at a cheek block, I’d have a close look at your deck.
